Wednesday, October 9, 2013

Martyrs and Zealots and Death...oh my

Maybe I am delving too deeply into these past lessons and coming to conclusions that are false. I don't know. I don't trust my own ability to think critically right now. I found several old teachings that, when looked at together, points to a frightening conclusion. My perspective is quite different than it was at the time we first heard and then read these lessons. Then, I believed everything, and accepted it as positive, right, true. Presently, I read it all from a place of anger and betrayal. Am I using skewed logic, like they do? Are the things I am reading in these lessons, do they say what I think they say? Those reading who grew up as I did, you remember the things we were told, beyond these printed teachings. Another perspective would be appreciated. I want to know. I admit my mind goes to some dark places during these past months.

That comment "sicarii" reminded me. I knew I heard it before. After some more time spent rummaging and speed reading through books, I found it. The Family printed books of  the lessons for each grade, taught at Bet El Yehoshua, the cult-run school. In the book of fourth grade lessons, there is a section titled "Zealots, Qumran & Masada". The first several of these lessons taught us what it means to be a Zealot, and why it was okay to kill people if god told them to. Interestingly, Jack always used the word "us" when speaking about the zealots. In the first lesson, Jack talks about the zealots who were called "Sicarii". These "dagger men" would hide little daggers under their clothing, go into crowds, and stab Jews who they felt cooperated with the Romans. They also go to people's houses, kill them and steal their children. This was because they were teaching the children things the Sicarii believed were Roman. The lesson continues with the zealots going to Qumran, their activities, scroll writing, and their holiness and preparation for a coming battle in which they would fight for God.
The next several lessons progresses through the history of the zealots, setting the stage for the last lesson, for what Jack referred to as the terrible, yet very brave thing that happened at Masada.





What is being taught? 1. That zealots were justified in killing, they were carrying out God's work.
2. The actions in Masada brought unity among the zealots. 3. They didn't do anything wrong. Jack said they offered themselves up as a sacrifice. Death before slavery. 4. This one is most worrisome, that a "true prophet" can command the people to temporarily lay aside or break the commandments.

We wanted to be zealots. We should be zealots. What happened there was good. After Abba came out of hiding, he spoke of being "fanatics" for God. That this is what we should strive for. He also taught us about martyrdom. We were to strive to be martyrs. Do you remember the tape that was passed around after 9-11? Jack talked about Bin Laden carrying out God's work. he said that yes, Bin Laden was evil, but God told him to do what he did. he said the terrorists did what God told them to, it is what he wanted. Those terrorist believed they were doing what God ordered them to do, and they were right.
Is there really a "Law of the Prophets"? I don't know. This I do know, the Family now has prophets. People they believe to be true prophets. What if one of them commands the family to set aside a commandment, and become martyrs. Will they do it? Could something lead to that? A few short months ago, I would have said "No Way". I am no longer so sure.

I would like to post everything. There is so much here. So many references to being Martyrs. Statements about being sacrifices, about dying or being killed to complete our walk on the "Way".

Here is another, a partial lesson on the 32 Paths.

 
There is one more I would like to post today. It is also a part of the 32 Path lessons, and will be posted by this evening. Please, if there are any people who remember the talk about being fanatics, sacrifices and martyrs, please share. Hopefully I will have the time to read more and post what I discover.
Are these things taught in this way in Christianity? Judaism? Catholicism? Lutheranism?
 
 



20 comments:

  1. I intended to add: every boy who is consecrated as a priest in the family is given a dagger. What is the actual purpose of this? Is it symbolic? The priests are taught lessons separate from the rest of the youth, secret lessons just for them. Does anyone have knowledge of any of them? Are they taught to use the daggers?

    ReplyDelete
  2. In just passing research for catholic priests I found this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Martyred_Roman_Catholic_priests
    There is more, while Catholicism is not perfect it would seem it suffers retribution in its stand for faith and life.
    Who in the 'family' would sacrifice as much? Just wondering.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Thank you for talking about this. I had touched upon the subject in one of my blogs and was accused of hyperbole. Here it is in black and white. Yes, absolutely, the youth were taught that martyrdom was the goal. Death was an acceptable means to your walk/path, just not suicide. This is why I had said during my "true believer" phase, I was wondering why I hadn't died. I have a very unnaturally blase attitude towards death. Very unnatural for my age, in fact. I fantasized about what death would be like, all the time. Always thinking about it. Trying to come to that resolution, I am sure.
    I used to have vivid dreams about the "end times," the death of the priests, Abba, lions, temples, burning homes. It was intense. Abba told me I shouldn't eat certain foods before going bed... because they freaked me out so bad I actually went to speak with him about them. I never did that again!

    It's even more concerning that people are recognized as prophets. I remember one the Miriam's had had a prophesy at a retreat I went to, but not much more than that. Again, with the roundings and the big prayer/mediations it sounds as though this has really amped up. All of these behaviors are on the FBI list for reasons to investigate a religious movement.

    Anyway, I have heard from more youth than myself that they fear death. Or they do not fear death at all, and become thrill junkies, or they suffered from suicidal ideations because of the confusion from these teachings. I can think of people that were ready to die. Ready, and hopeful to.

    I cannot imagine how these ideals, and the prophets with self-serving needs (some monetary, some self-worth, some zealots) will manipulate this information.

    Jack used prophesy all along to promote his agenda though. If someone had a dream or a vision that he could use, THEN he let it become public. But a lot of people in the group have had "dreams" or "visions" or prophetic "mumblings." I honestly think most of it is trying too hard, and forcing a frame of mind to overpower the conscious thought. Jack told his inner circle that most of the visions and what not were a form of illusion, a promoted thought of ideal that manifests almost as through hypnosis from the teachings, and people would spin what he would say and come up with shit all their own.

    I'd bet that is what is happening now.

    But usually, no one in wants to talk about the martyrdom issue. If I read back on my comments, the "in" people commenting are trying to pretend I was blowing the whistle on a made-up idea. Thanks for posting the evidence.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Here is a wikipedia page about a recent martyr. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragheed_Ganni, I'm not trying to advocate martyrdom I'm not. I'm not suggesting that anybody in the family do so, based on what you published and talked about it was clear to me that Jack would advocate a 'please, you first' approach to 'putting it all on the line' . This is a clear example how jack lied, twisted, and when you put him up against a real leader, someone with real faith and does 'put it all on the line', jack looks like a coward. Jack had nothing to offer the masses of people, he had t hide away. I can tell you that there were a few people after jack when it all blew apart, that's why he ran, not because he was taking a righteous stand, but because what he was doing was actually criminal. The crap that still goes on verges on criminal, In what you posted jack goes on about some sacrificial theories, then he backs away, saying he doesn't know, he was quite a trickster. He was masterful at manipulation and always giving himself a way out. Are they still hyperventilating prophecies? Man, all those V's and O's and R's need to quit playing kings and princes and get real jobs. I'm not sure how they would put it on a resume though. Are they collecting welfare too? I'll try to look that up. Thanks for this info, again its disturbing, too bad there is no religion police to clean this mess up. Sorry if I'm just stating the obvious. If I find them on the welfare roles I'll just post a link. -Ray

    ReplyDelete
  5. No, you won't find any of them on the welfare rolls, with the exception of some elderly or disabled on ss and disability. The rest do hold normal jobs for the most part.
    To be blunt, I believe Jack was planting a seed that would grow over time into a group of people who would lay down their lives in the name of God. Jack expected to be leading for a longer period of time. At some point things would have had to reach a point of climax. What has happened when past cult leaders were running out of time? Their prophesies of persecution and destruction become self-fulfilling. Waco andJonestown come to mind. Is this group that extreme? I don't know, maybe. Could that result be a possibility? Absolutely.
    Everyone shies away from this subject. Why?
    Suicide is not ermitted, but Masada was heraldedas the right thing to do. The family sees our society as the modern Rome. Families who go to synagogues or or do not send their children to the cult school are told their children will be polluted. It is discouraged.
    Why do the priests have daggers?
    People want to be martyrs. The prayer meetings are intense. People yelling, scrraming, crying. Falling on their knees, praying to be martyrs. Like Freckle Face has said, it is like mass hysteria. The entire group gets swept up into this wave of emotion, and anything is possible. Every time the group goes through a change or crisis, like bloody Sunday, or the recent prophecies, people fall away. The ones who are left are the most extreme, and growing more so. There will come a time when the call will go out to gather at the "safe places". The reasons may be real or imagined. Believe me, though, it is building. Once they are there, I am confident they will not come out and go back to their normal lives. That will be the end of their lives as they know it, one way or another.
    Every day, and with every lesson I read and listen to again I am more certain of this.

    ReplyDelete
  6. I totally agree with you Sim. The farther I got away from the rationalizations and excuses I made to myself, to make sense of the doctrine, it was pretty hard to ignore the warning signs and potential for disaster built in

    ReplyDelete
  7. This is very upsetting. Actually what I think is most disturbing is that they're having so many children. If the ones who stay are more extreme than ever and they have so many children then I wonder what chance their is for these children. It so sad.

    ReplyDelete
  8. In a way, it sounds like the early training of a terrorist organization. If they tell you to fly into a building, because the time has come, would you?

    ReplyDelete
  9. No, and niether would anyone else. Most of them are pacifists, for the most part. Killing others is a big NO, except under very specific circumstances. Most (not all) won't allow their mish members to chose professions which may require taking another's life. No law enforcement, no armed services, etc. There are many who would stand and allow themselves and familty to be killed if faced with a situation. They have stated as much. That way they would be martyrs. However, in being "fanatics for God" the word of one of their prophets could change everything. In that case, in their delusions and mass hysteria (happens often) they couuld easily conclude that the time has come. It is their own lives that are in danger in that situation. IMHO

    ReplyDelete
  10. The comment on breeding terrorists seems relevant and appropriate, here is a link for some terrorist background.
    http://terrorism.about.com/od/causes/a/causes_terror.htm
    You have to realize that jack and the leadership will never encourage 'the goose that lays the golden eggs' to commit suicide, the supply of eggs will stop. In not being close to this I am unable to reconcile the points about terrorism and the brain washing of the 'family' so Sim maybe you can elaborate where it might match or not match here. There is always concern where fanaticism is grown to flourish. Its not that people can't love God or really believe in their religion, its about control, relegating control to a leadership that may have a hidden agenda.
    I suppose like in the refuge camps on the west bank, there are some seeming high minded leaders that appear very benevolent, yet its still about control. can they get some young fully indoctrinated youth to 'push the button'? I think they can, I think they are afraid (leadership) of the youth finding out the truth and thinking for themselves. That's why all the rules to keep the family looking inward, continue the cloister, and this is why it will eventually fail. The core leaders will die out, they are old and Maine is tough on them, they want to go to Florida. Its so sad for them because they are accomplishing nothing except to be accountable for lying, and stealing freedom from the youth.
    So what do you think Sim, Freckles, are they breeding terrorists or breeding golden egg layers? I think its all about the eggs.
    Oh and about working and welfare and food stamps, since PR has in depth knowledge on how the system works, and since they all have a higher charter, I suspect there is some public sustenance being garnered, maybe its tax evasion, but I have to think it goes on, I mean with the lies they tell about and construct a religion why stop there? Why would they not do that? just askin... -Ray

    ReplyDelete
  11. there is a book that might prove an interesting and worthwhile read for you, and I mean all of you. Under the banner of heaven: a story of violent faith by Krakauer. this could yield some insights or reveal some parallels that only you may be capable of doing. Just a thought.

    ReplyDelete
  12. In answer to your last question in the post, Sim: No - in general, Christianity, Judaism, Catholicism, Lutheranism, and other major religions don't dwell on any of this kind of thing.
    It does, as you suggest, seem to be much more of a pattern in cults. I remember back in the late '70's, after the Jim Jones horror, that there was concern that Shoresh Yishai might be considered a similar group, and I think there was an effort to assure everyone that "we were different" - and I think at the time most, if not all of us, agreed, as there was no sign of a drop-off in the membership. We certainly wanted to think that we were way smarter than that... but there were teachings like this even then. I remember classes about Masada, etc., and how we might be persecuted for our beliefs..
    Yet I think this material definitely shows more than just a passing interest in martyrdom. And yes, it shows more than a resemblance to the same kinds of fanatical, fundamentalist idealism that spawned David Koresh, Jim Jones, Al-Queda - you name it - and going down that path could always be a dangerous possibility. Once again, I agree with the poster above about the control issue. All the elements are here: make everyone feel "our message is 'special'," "we have a special purpose in the world," "we are IN the world, but can't be OF the world," "our way is the right way,""we must protect our way and our children from the outside world, and we must be willing to fight to protect that"...
    So what makes this line of thinking any different from the Taliban? Al-Queda? Jim Jones? The Essenes? Other radical Christian fundamentalists? Or dare I even mention ultra right-wing politicians (I'm finding their blind fanaticism more and more scary lately!)?
    There is no difference. It is a form of what I call "spiritual bigotry," and it fosters an intolerance of others who do not believe or behave "as we do." It is an attitude of separateness that promotes seclusion instead of inclusion, self-righteousness instead of humility, and fear-based close-mindedness instead of tolerance and open-mindedness.
    I believe the simple fact is, that for the die-hard member who has devoted their entire life (and their children's and grandchildren's), the thought of leaving this group has become so horrible that they would never leave, because the realization that it was all an orchestrated sham would simply be too much to bear - maybe so much so that they'd opt out and down the Kool-Aid after running off to lock themselves up in an End Times of their own making....
    My three cents
    Chris

    ReplyDelete
  13. You know, nobody has forced your hand in believing or walking away. Everyone has the choice. Your paranoi is misplaced. There is never teachings that support death. You know it. There is preparation to survive. That's the whole point. I don't get why you and the others are so hell bent on throwing innocent people under the bus and making things up to make them look bad. You have the problem. You don't believr? Good for you, just walk away. Live and let live.

    ReplyDelete
  14. I would like to respond to Anonymous 10/30/13 @ 8:06 pm

    Assertion: "nobody has forced your hand in believing or walking away."
    Fact: I don't know this actually, because I think our parents actually did. Our parents and their friends. Our Aunts and Uncles, cousins, lifelong friends. Everyone we believed was our "family" forced us from a young age to believe. They told us walking away would basically result in burning in the fires of Gehena in order to properly fulfill our spiritual destiny if we chose the left side. That's manipulation, and forcing a hand, in my opinion.

    Assertion: "Everyone has the choice."
    Fact: People who have been brainwashed from birth have a difficult time with decision making. Choice implies freedom of thought and having all of the facts. It also implies a healthy ability to weigh pros and cons. Things that fall on the "con" side for this group are: complete and total alienation, permanent labeling and mistrust from being a defector, death and/or being used by God, failure to live through the apocalypse. It's not like deciding if you want to attend church on Sundays. The scales were heavily stacked to pick the group, and not leave it. It IS a choice, but not a fair one.

    Assertion: "Your paranoia is misplaced."
    Fact: All paranoia is usually misplaced. Was Jack's paranoia misplaced? People are watching you, coming for you, testing you, judging you, tattling on you, the world is going to end....

    Assertion: "There is never teachings that support death."
    Fact: Your grammar sucks, and you may not be able to read. I only say this because in the above post is printed the truth that there are actually teachings that support death. By Abba, by Jack. It's right there. Just read it.

    Assertion: "There is preparation to survive."
    Fact: Indeed. Survive what? Physical, spiritual, mental, sexual, psychological, political, or other apocalypse? Just because you bought a cabin in the woods and stocked it full of food and fuel doesn't mean you're surviving anything. It means you're ready to hide for a long time.

    Assertion: "That's the whole point."
    Response: Did Jack tell anyone the master plan? Do you actually know what the purpose of all this was? Because the "whole point" was never survival. It was about sacrifice. It was about being a servant. It was about being a spiritual warrior. It was about hiding. It was about finding God. It was about being spiritually perfect. It was about fulfilling a prophesy. It was about rape. It was about money. It was about feeling special in a chaotic meaningless world. People have felt very differently about the "whole point" of this group for a long time. But I would say no one says it's 100% about survival except for one very specific, albeit large, family in the group.

    Assertion: "you and the others are so hell bent on throwing innocent people under the bus"
    Response: Hell bent? Not really. I believe the impetus is based more in reality and an attempt to achieve clear and sound decision making by compiling information.
    Innocent is a strong word here. Most of the people accused of things are not innocent. They are knowing. They are aware. They are mature. They are experienced. They know full well the scope of their practices.

    Assertion: "making things up"
    Fact: It's there in black and white straight from Jack's library. It's not made up. The material on the page is the fiction.

    Assertion: "make them look bad"
    Response: they did that themselves.

    Assertion: "just walk away. Live and let live."
    Response... you first.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Okay, there are a few things I will explain to you. I am not the anonymous Freckle Face responded to but I know what he/she was trying to say.
    First, there are several religions and groups that teach their children the doctrine they follow from birth. Christians will teach their children that they will go to Hell if they do not accept Christ. Athiests teach their children there is no God, and we have no souls. The Amish don't allow television or girls to wear pants. Are those children all brainwashed? Weigh the pros and cons, and it is stacked unfairly for ANY person who chooses a road different from their upbringing.That is normal. Parents should and have the right to bring their children up according to what they believe. Any adult child who attempts to change paths will struggle with their identity and their own taught view of the world. I don't see the issue here. If Bell Out of Order wants to walk away, go ahrad.. Who is stopping you?
    To me, it sounds like she is insecure with her own choices and would like to blame someone else for her own lack of faith. It is too easy to play victim and therefore not have to accept responsibility for the problems that arise that are theirs to deal with and fix. The world does not work that way. I am not trying to be mean, but all I see here is a lot of blaming and self pity instead of being the adults that you are.
    You walked away. Congratulations. If that was the right choice for you, well good. No one else can say you are right or wrong. No one in the Family is trying to make any person stay.
    Yet you and the others cannot seem to accept that others have made a different choice. Why is that? Why do you think that only your view is correct? Why do you hold an entire group of people responsible for the bad decisions of a few? Are all Arabs evil because a few choose to terrorize? Some people may say so. I don't.
    Look around you. I don't see a bunch of abused children. I see happy children and incredibly functional intelligent young adults who are out there living well and positively. If there is so much abuse, where are the victims? Any group of people, organized or random, is going to have an element of negative or dysfunctional behavior. I don't see this one being any different.
    I have never seen the things described in the blogs. Rape, abuse, etc. I do believe it is exaggerated. And there you have it, being anonymous, one can say anything they want without the proof or validation. I can start a blog tomorrow and claim that my teacher snuck into my room every night and killed rabbits. Why not? Maybe I didn't like him. One can SAY anything.
    Yes, I understand that you believe the teachings are fiction. There are many who believe the bible is fairytale in its entirety. So what? I CAN read, and I still do not see any suggestion of cyanide-laced kool aid events on the horizon as you seem to. Of course, I have had the benefit of hearing the lessons completely and understand the context. This blogs author clearly picked through for anything that would support her agenda. Anyone who knows anything about us can see right through it.

    ReplyDelete
  16. PART ONE - response to 11/4 anonymous above

    I think it's wise for Sim to ignore the last "anonymous" (family member) post here. If this were my blog, I might decide not to dignify it with a response, either. But it's not my blog. And so I have no problem throwing in my oar: "Okay, there are a few things I will explain to YOU:
    YOU: "First, there are several religions and groups that teach their children the doctrine they follow from birth. Christians will teach their children that they will go to Hell if they do not accept Christ. Athiests teach their children there is no God, and we have no souls. The Amish don't allow television or girls to wear pants. Are those children all brainwashed?"
    ME: Hmmm...... possibly!!! First, I would think that there are far more than "several." I would think that it would be more like "most." It could certainly be argued that ALL organized (or even disorganized!) religions contain an element of "brainwashing."
    YOU: "Any adult child who attempts to change paths will struggle with their identity and their own taught view of the world. I don't see the issue here."...
    ME: Of course you don't "see the issue here" - because you have no clue what it's like to walk in Sim's shoes. You seem to be comfortable in your own choice not to question the things she is questioning, so how could you possibly know what she's going through?
    YOU: "To me, it sounds like she is insecure with her own choices and would like to blame someone else for her own lack of faith. It is too easy to play victim and therefore not have to accept responsibility for the problems that arise that are theirs to deal with and fix. The world does not work that way. I am not trying to be mean, but all I see here is a lot of blaming and self pity instead of being the adults that you are."
    ME: Wow. Not trying to be mean? Really? Why does that whole paragraph sound exactly like a rapist trying to say that the victim is to blame for the rapist's behavior? Of course Sim is insecure! EVERYONE in her situation would be. If she feels she has been victimized by someone in the family, who are YOU to invalidate her?? And "lack of faith"? Are you kidding? If you only knew what kind of giant LEAP of faith it takes to walk away, you might not be so condescending. If you weren't so insecure yourself, you might see that this blog is, in and of itself, about Sim's process of taking responsibility for her choice. Self pity? I don't see an ounce of that here. If you or anyone else in the family is feeling threatened by this blog, as that paragraph indicates, then you might want to consider that it is you who is/are insecure in your choice.
    YOU: "No one in the Family is trying to make any person stay."
    ME: I'm not sure about this, so I'm going to trust you on this one. Can I rely on you to keep your eyes open and make sure it stays that way?
    YOU: "Yet you and the others cannot seem to accept that others have made a different choice."
    ME: Oh, I'm sure Sim and "the others" can accept that, however much they may be in disagreement with that choice.
    To be continued....
    Chris

    ReplyDelete
  17. PART 2


    YOU: "Why do you hold an entire group of people responsible for the bad decisions of a few? Are all Arabs evil because a few choose to terrorize?"
    ME: I'm sorry, but this is simply a poor example. You're comparing (at last count) a group of 60-odd families to 1.6 BILLION Muslims? The "Family" is an EXTREMELY small sect - and therefore the fact that, at the very least, 3 people have stepped forward with their truths about abuse indicates, at least to me, a problem. Do the math. You might want to consider the ratio of reported incidents to total members and then decide to take some "responsibility" yourself and confront the membership - or continue to live in a river in Egypt.
    YOU: "Look around you. I don't see a bunch of abused children. I see happy children and incredibly functional intelligent young adults who are out there living well and positively. If there is so much abuse, where are the victims? Any group of people, organized or random, is going to have an element of negative or dysfunctional behavior. I don't see this one being any different."
    ME: I'm sorry, but this is classic denial. I don't think anyone has said that the abuse was rampant - but at least some of the victims have come out and reported that a serious problem does exist, and this should be cause for concern. Yes, this sort of thing happens out "in the real world," too. But believe me, ONE incident is already TOO MANY! I would like to know how you justify diminishing something so destructive as rape and child abuse by calling it "an element of negative or dysfunctional behavior." Get real.
    YOU: "I have never seen the things described in the blogs. Rape, abuse, etc. I do believe it is exaggerated. And there you have it, being anonymous, one can say anything they want without the proof or validation. I can start a blog tomorrow and claim that my teacher snuck into my room every night and killed rabbits. Why not? Maybe I didn't like him. One can SAY anything."
    ME: Once again, denial. Just because you yourself haven't seen anything doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What are you afraid of? The hard truth? I really don't think Sim or "the others" have put themselves out here in cyberland for a lark. They are all doing this as part of their own process of healing and discovery. Maybe "real grownups" allow themselves to question everything. And yes, you could start your own blog tomorrow and tell us all about your wonderful happy life in the Family if you wanted, so others could see your side of it. Otherwise, I think it would be wise to stay out of this one, as you'll probably only wind up with a persecution complex, feeling "childishly victimized" by Sim's honest anger and the healing process she needs to go through here.
    YOU: "This blog's author clearly picked through for anything that would support her agenda. Anyone who knows anything about us can see right through it."
    ME: Yep, Sim is "picking through" her past to come to terms with her present. That is her "agenda" : to learn from her past, work through it, grieve for it, mourn for it, get angry about it, heal from it, accept it, and finally (hopefully) move on. Her "agenda" is to have the courage reach out to a MUCH bigger world beyond "the family" for the support she needs. Support she obviously didn't get from within when she needed it.
    Obviously, Sim's blog has touched some discord in you. You're angry, defensive, perhaps a little paranoid, and don't like anyone trying to poke holes in your belief. You see, anyone who knows anything about psychology can see right through you. Oops, sorry, now I'm getting condescending.... my apologies.
    With Tough Love
    Not so anonymous Chris

    ReplyDelete
  18. Hi, I must have missed this due to work, but like Chris above I'd like to speak to Anon 11/4 9:58am who I will call Franky. Franky I don't want to pile on you and anyone else in the 'family'. In my own trying to be objective I can agree that bad things happen in other 'religions' too. I do come down with Chris, Sim and Freckles and I'll admit my own prejudice there. I don't know how open minded I can be, but I'll try, but Franky, I would need you to try. I don't know if Sim will allow it here either, but to be fair, I'd like to know, simply (no pun intended) what of the basic tenants of the family can cause you to over-ride the basic sense of decency and justice to give the group a free pass?
    Can you tell me the mission? Sim, can you indulge me? maybe its wrong to ask, but in this small group, what is the widely held belief, the coveted truth that you believe in that helps you over-ride justice? What causes you to continue to believe it? I'm not asking you for the secrets, what I'm asking for is what do you have either logically or emotionally that gets you over the edge of what we think of as normal sensibilities?
    I realize my question has a very subjective answer. Franky, your in it, today, most likely tomorrow, and next week. Can you tell me why you see yourself there in 3 months? maybe Sim will let you respond and even claim a De-militarized zone for your response. I can understand this is close to you and you might just think I'm setting you up. This is Sim's blog and I really am not trying to take it over, most of us here are not of the family persuasion, that's true. Think of this as me and you meeting on a street corner and you telling me the most important information there is. I might want to tell you that its wrong, and that would be my slant, but if you really believe it, and you base your life and the future of your family (your atomic family), what are you basing that on? I would think it would be defensible. I still talk with people about God and religion as a fellow sojourner in life, and we can agree to disagree, can we do that Franky?
    If Sim wants to shut that down, okay, its not the first time I've said or asked too much. I think I'm asking a reasonable question. Sim? thanks -Ray

    ReplyDelete
  19. Franky, so its friday and I don't want to be pushy so if sim allows it, please indulge me with some kind of answer. The fact is we actually have much in common, most likely you have conservative ideas about government, war, violence, the importance of trying to live out a God centered life, doing good, helping and protecting. We have some other things in common, we were both duped by jack, me a long time ago, you as much by his 'inner circle' and his legacy. What is that legacy of his? did jack have any offspring of his own? I think that's an interesting thought, can it be? or would jack not be able to be with a woman? was there some prophet's code he could not break, just askin? -Ray

    ReplyDelete
  20. Dear Anonymous's 1 and 2 who wrote to Sim and myself: I have replied. I didn't want to do it on Sim's blog since most of its content was aimed at my comments. I have posted a reply here: http://butseriouslybaby.blogspot.com/2013/11/to-whom-it-may-concern.html

    I welcome your continued conversation on these topics.

    Freckles

    ReplyDelete